First timer buyer

  • John Zarpak
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5 months 3 weeks ago #3254 by John Zarpak
Replied by John Zarpak on topic First timer buyer
Sure, I would appreciate your help. Currently I don’t have a cell phone. Email is the best way for me; .

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5 months 3 weeks ago #3246 by Carl Ziegler
Replied by Carl Ziegler on topic First timer buyer
John, if you are interested, I would be willing to chat with you regarding your "quest".
carl z AP IA

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7 months 3 days ago #3197 by GARY PALMER
Replied by GARY PALMER on topic First timer buyer
I would suggest a review of the Savvy material describing why an annual is not a pre-buy. Certainly it could be, but having seen the Savvy pre-buy list and process for a cherokee I just purchased I would say they covered stuff not necessary in an annual.

So the annual may cover 75% (my guess) of what the Savvy experts ask the mechanic to look for. When we were happy, and continuing we did have the mechanic sigh off for an annual. But I would not want to pay for an annual to then walk away from a plane that is not meeting my need/expectation.

Also, an annual is typically a all-for-one event. The Savvy pre-buy checked major things first for AD or other airworthiness issues. This is broken out as a separate fee because if the owner and seller cannot come to an agreement the process is over. No full annual price is paid. If there is agreement, then the mechanic continues with part 2 and delivers a robust report of everything found. This is not to whittle price as much as make the buyer aware. Another thing is that many components in an annual are "good or not" but being wear items an annual is all about passing (think Cessna seat rails); a good pre-buy starts to report how good. Tires worn but pass, no problem, but 5 more landings might make the fail, an annual is NOT OBLIGATED to tell you any of that and might not want to be bothered.

At this point, if the buyer leaves the deal, the owner has not benefited from an annual paid for him. If the deal continues the buy has a much deeper picture of what is being purchased.

I have owned my cessna for 8 years, assisted in all my annuals, learned a heck of a lot from both ownership and the asking a lot of questions. I have learned so much, but not being an A&P and knowing there are scammers out there right now (because it is a sellers market) I would not trust myself and was willing to pay for Savvy help.

There can be other companies, but I found Savvy and they have assisted for other things, so I trust them. And reading the published materials from Mike Busch adds to their credit. Scammers are smarter than me, so I got help.

Good luck if you go it alone. It your decision is based on costs, I suggest you rethink owning your own plane. It will cost more than you think.

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7 months 3 days ago #3191 by STEVE ELLS
Replied by STEVE ELLS on topic First timer buyer
Hi,

A successful airplane buy can be a time consuming and frustrating task. Right now it's a seller's market and prices have jumped (30% or more) in the last two years.
The problem is cheap money, and a limited supply.

Cessna Flyer printed a guide to a good pre-buy. You can access it here: www.cessnaflyer.org/maintenance-tech/ite...hase-inspection.html .

It's just one of many maintenance related articles that are available to members on this website. Click on the "magazine" button in the top ribbon and start learning.

Ideally you want to find a seller that will agree to sharing the cost of an annual inspection by a mechanic who is, 1) familiar with the 172 and 2) independent of the seller.


If the seller isn't willing to split the cost and you find what looks like a real good airplane, it's wise to pay for the annual inspection. An annual inspection for a 172 should take 17-20 man hours. A good annual will produce a list of items that need to be addressed.

Attempt to get the seller to either adjust the asking price to compensate for any airworthiness items found during the inspection, or agree to pay to fix the airworthiness items. Some items, which don't affect airworthiness, (paint, dirty carpet, etc.) are not worth negotiating over.

These options should be laid out and agreed to on paper before moving forward.

If the seller won't budge on price, or refuses to release the airplane to an independent mechanic for an inspection, you may have to walk away.

Or you can trust the seller and buy it, hoping that you made a good decision.

The reason we (and Savvy) stress that the $$ spent up front for an annual is money well spent, is because aircraft maintenance and parts costs are high and even on missed or pencil whipped (yes it happens) airworthiness directive can cost many times more than the cost of a pre purchase inspection.

I believe the next issue of the Cessna Flyer will have a guide to 172 maintenance and common discrepancies.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

Steve

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7 months 4 days ago #3190 by GARY PALMER
Replied by GARY PALMER on topic First timer buyer
They do a log review, but as a free service they do not always review logs from day 1. I think they kept us at about 5 years worth and we had to get the pictures sorted and organized for them. It is a free service so expect to have to do some work.

Yes I read the hand written log entries too. I was looking to account for all hours on the engine and determine if it was overhauled or replaced. The best way to understand what you might get in the engine is to review it from its start.

I learned a lot about buying a plane after my first. And yes, I said that right, it was not until after the purchase the I really learned a lot about buying a plane. AOPA was a big help. They have a service that got me all the records and such. I also had a lawyer who answered questions. I did not know how much I did not know, but I was very lucky. This time I applied all I know and ended up walking away from 6 airplanes all of which looked good at first.

Get copies of the logs and organize them into engine, aircraft and prop. If you are lucky there is some form of avionics log too. Once in these category type create a picture of each log entry. Name the picture "YYYYMMDD type". Now you can read the logs in time sequence and it becomes a story.

Also ask if there is an oil analysis performed on each or frequent oil changes. Those results tell a great story too. Good luck.

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7 months 4 days ago #3189 by John Zarpak
Replied by John Zarpak on topic First timer buyer
Gary;
You wrote " . . . discovered deep in the logs . . .", Does this mean I have to read the handwriting of mechanics in logbooks and then search to understand what those mean? Or is there a better/easier way? What is the average entries for a, say, 1970 Cessna 172?

I read the link you sent -thank you-, they do logbook review, is it good enough or I still need to read them myself?

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