Standby Alternator - Bueller... Bueller...

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4 months 2 weeks ago #3226 by STEVE ELLS
Replied by STEVE ELLS on topic Standby Alternator - Bueller... Bueller...
Hi Troy,
That's my conclusion.
Perhaps after the start of the year, someone at B & C or the FAA will see that this "upgrade" has already been approved on different airframes and add the TR 182 to the Approved Model List (AML)

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4 months 2 weeks ago #3224 by Troy Whistman
Replied by Troy Whistman on topic Standby Alternator - Bueller... Bueller...
Correct, but most of the "backup artificial horizons" that are being used with glass panels are also electric, with their own battery backup. i.e., using a G5 or GI 275 with the G500txi. So that would still leave the vacuum pad available on the accessory case of the O-540 for installation of a backup alternator.

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4 months 2 weeks ago #3223 by STEVE ELLS
Replied by STEVE ELLS on topic Standby Alternator - Bueller... Bueller...
Hi Troy;
Thanks for your response re: turbo oil scavenge pump and the picture showing where it's installed.

The only way to install the B & C back up alternator is on the vacuum pump pad, which as you can see is covered with a square blank off plate.

Therefore, I conclude that any approval for the installation of the B & C alternator will require the removal of the vacuum system.

There may be a catch. I believe that in the past, even if the vacuum system is removed, and the vacuum instruments replaced with "glass" the regulations require a second artificial horizon.

But today I was told by my favorite avionics guy that most of the "glass panel" manufacturers have now upgraded their installation rules to eliminate the need for a back up artificial horizon.
Check with your avionics guy to see if a separate artificial horizon is required with the glass panel you have installed in your airplane.

Steve

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4 months 2 weeks ago - 4 months 2 weeks ago #3222 by Troy Whistman
Replied by Troy Whistman on topic Standby Alternator - Bueller... Bueller...
Steve,

Thanks for that additional detail. YES, the -L3C5D for the TR182 has a scavenge pump. See attached picture from my recently (October 2021) installed factory rebuild, and feel free to keep and use this picture in the future.



How does that scavenge pump impact the use of a B&C alternator off the vacuum drive pad? Is it this comment from page 2 in the B&C publication you posted?

"The B&C Standby Alternator is mounted on the hydraulic accessory drive pad on the Lycoming "dual mag" (2-in-1 magneto) drive engines)"

That seems to assume that the vacuum pump is still needed... maybe with the vacuum pump gone, it can be mounted on the vacuum pump drive as it is on engines two separate magnetos?
Troy
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4 months 2 weeks ago #3220 by STEVE ELLS
Replied by STEVE ELLS on topic Standby Alternator - Bueller... Bueller...
Dear Nathan, and Troy;
I think I can answer some of these questions.

First off www.bandc.com is the company to get a back up alternator from. It has been in business many years and its system is proven.

You can find all information needed related to installation clarity (location, etc) on this page:
bandc.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/PA32_Info_RevC.pdf .

Take a look at the "Installation Notes" on page 2. There are specific instructions on where the B and C alternator is mounted on both "dual mag" versions and two mag versions of the O-540 engine accessory case.

I have no problem at all with installing a www.airwolf.com remote oil filter assembly if you have the real estate on the firewall. The hoses will need to be changed at 8-10 year intervals but that's not hard. The oil filter adapters that have given problems in the past are the screw in oil filter adapters in the Continental powered Cessna singles.

The question about rotational speed of the gearing is located in the O-540 Type Certificate Data Sheet (E-295)
The Lycoming engine listed the B & C STC for installation of its 410 (12 or 24 volt) series back up alternator on one of the Piper PA 32 series of airplanes is the O-540 E4B5.

The Lycoming TCDS shows that the vacuum pad gear rotational speed is the same for the O-540 L3C5D on the R and TR 182 as it is on the O-540 E4B5 on the PA 32 series aircraft.

Don't be confused by the R182 and TR182 models; they are both powered by the same carbureted engine. The T (for turbo) in the turbo charged (actually turbo normalized) version is equipped with a manually-controlled turbocharger system that was designed by Cessna.
It's not a Lycoming design system, so there's no need to install a different model Lycoming engine.

The only question I don't have an answer to is this: is there an oil scavenge pump on the accessory case of the engine in your TR 182. A scavenge pump is used to make sure that the engine oil that is pumped through the turbocharge center bearing doesn't pool up in the turbo and leak past the bearing seals.

I know these scavenge pumps are part of the turbo charger installations on Big Bore Continental turbo charged engines, but since the turbo on the TR 182 is a very small turbocharger, it may not need one. If there's a turbocharge oil scavenge pump mounted on the accessory case, that gums things up.

I can't find the answer in either the TR 182 parts or service manuals.

So, is there or is there not an oil scavenge pump on the accessory case of the TR 182???

Thanks
Steve
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4 months 2 weeks ago #3218 by Troy Whistman
Replied by Troy Whistman on topic Standby Alternator - Bueller... Bueller...
Hey there, Steve and Nathan.

I've been researching this extensively for my TR182, since the upcoming ElectroAir dual Electronic Ignition System will require either a standby battery system or a standby alternator.

Jason Moorefield at Freedom Aviation did a field approval (337) for a B&C Standby Alternator system on TR182 N5087S, and provided me a copy of the 337 for reference if anyone wants to try that route (see attached).

Subsequently, I had contact from Kent McIntyre of Bevan Aviation in August of this year; they are (were?) working on an R182 field approval for the same, but were running into some issues. Kent asked me: "We’re doing a field approval on an R182 for the standby alternator. Without a gear in the lower accessory drive, it looks like an oil filter adapter is the only way to get clearance for the alternator. If that’s what you did could you tell me what P/N or brand you used?" He subsequently stated "It could be the TR version of the O540 has a gear in the lower drive pad. We think mounting the oil filter remotely on the firewall will solve the problem."

Personally, I wouldn't want to go with a remote oil filter... I've heard too many stories of issues with oil filter adapters. Steve, what's your opinion on those? It would make oil changes easier! lol

I also had an email conversation with B&C, but can't find it in my archives. They indicated the gear ratio of the gear at the vacuum pump drive pad would need to be a specific gear ratio, and when I looked up the gear in the Lycoming manual, it was NOT that value for my O-540-L3C5D.



CONTACT INFORMATION:

Jason K. Moorefield
Avionics Manager
Freedom Aviation Inc.
310 Hangar Road
Lynchburg, VA 24502
434-237-8434


Kent McIntyre, President
Bevan Aviation, Inc.
1880 S. Airport Rd.
Wichita, Ks. 67209
316-946-4870
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